Comments on The Daily (Maybe): Is the Green Party Anti-Capitalist?

Adding my two bits, the greens are left, but not a...

2007-05-25T15:57:00.000Z

Adding my two bits, the greens are left, but not anti-capitalist and most (not all Greens) are essentially committed to reform of the present system and making it 'fairer'.

Some of the most infuriating political conversations I've had was between myself and Green party members trying to argue for action only against Esso rather than against oil companies, big buisness in general.

Nevermind eh?

There are alternatives to both the market and comm...

2007-05-23T22:54:00.000Z

There are alternatives to both the market and command economies, around commons regimes, open source, etc.

Most useful human activity is neither for cash nor at the instruction of the state.

so lets extend and defend these spaces.

I found a visit to Wikipedia's pages on capitalism...

2007-05-21T09:11:00.000Z

I found a visit to Wikipedia's pages on capitalism useful when contemplating my own anti-capitalism - here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPITALISM

I think the two key elements of capitalism which are of most concern are the dominance of transnational corporations - TNCs as they are referred to these days, (the term used by Baran and Sweezy - multinational corporations - seems to be rather passe) and markets.

Tackling TNCs needs the combined efforts of bold, progressive, green government at all levels and campaigns encouraging citizens and consumers to take coordinated, individual actions would be useful.

As for markets I prefer to describe these as rigged rather than free. Rigged in favour of the interests of TNCs and other vested interests. But I cannot see how we can easily be comprehensively anti-market in all respects. I hear no credible voice advocating a return to command economies.

So a world where markets have some role, constrained by progressive government and the power of existing TNCs is severly constrained appeals.

Douglas Coker

I know very little about the British Green Party, ...

2007-05-17T21:49:00.000Z

I know very little about the British Green Party, besides that nutcase David Icke. In America, our Green Party is hopelessly unfocused and has no strong leadership (Ralph Nader is a reoccurring name but under no circumstances a "leader").

Also, while I agree that one doesn't necessarily need to be a Marxist or Anarchist to oppose capitalism, I see no other way than Marx's plan by which to abolish it. I wouldn't discount attempting reforms but only a revolutionary party will being sustained change.

Yes Jim I agreeAnd the consequence of that is that...

2007-05-15T16:06:00.000Z

Yes Jim I agree

And the consequence of that is that if the Green party sees itself first of all as an environmental party, rather than a social justice party (and that is a valid point of view) then perhaps it has to be pluralistic enough to also include those who may have more conservative views on social justice and equality issues.

Where I am coming from here is to recognise that there can be two plitical projects that are both progressive, but are progressive within different frameworks and have different priorities.

As such the Green party (as it seems to me) is never going to be a develop a long-term partnership with the trade unions, even though many green policies match the policies of the unions. Because if the Greens took that step they would be becomming a left and not a green party.

Certainly the discussion as the whether the Greens...

2007-05-15T13:37:00.000Z

Certainly the discussion as the whether the Greens of England and Wales are anti-capitalist is very different to some of the european green parties who have definately proved themselves to be pro-capitalism in a big way.

It's definately possible to care about the environment in a very serious way and not be opposed to capitalism - just as it's possible to be wrong on lots of other issues.

Last weekends electins in Bremen throw up a differ...

2007-05-15T13:32:00.000Z

Last weekends electins in Bremen throw up a different way of looking at this question.

the Greens (die Gruene) went up from about 4% to 16%, and the hard left (die Linke) from 0% to 8.4%. There is quite a lot of information about the voters.

For example most first time voters opted for the Greens, but the left did much better with the age group 45 -59.

What is intersting is that while the Greens were overwhelmingly seen as the best vote for environmentlal issues the left were seen as much stronger on social justice issues - unemployment, equality, etc. (69% of voters identified die Linke with social justice, and only 39% identified the greens with that).

Now the german greens are a long way to the right of GPEW, but I would like to put forward the idea that while a sustainable economy is inherently unacheivable under free market conditions, ecological sustainabilty is not necessarily linked to social justice and fighting inequality.

so while all greens may be inclined to restrict the market in the interst of ecological sustainability, not all greens need necessarily align with traditional left wing concerns.

This also explains the wide divergence between die Gruene and the GPEW.

On the positive side it also means that both the Greens and the left can coexist as natural allies on some issues, but with diverging interests on other issues.

Hi Jim,I don't know if this is widespread knowledg...

2007-05-15T10:23:00.000Z

Hi Jim,

I don't know if this is widespread knowledge yet, but the Greens have pulled the plug on the Leeds coalition over the issue of waste incineration.

They don't have the leverage to fight it within the coalition after these elections, so with both Tories and Lib Dems set to push ahead, they have come out on a Green principle.

I still expect us to get criticised that it happened (or was allowed to) but as you say, we are decentralist. The alleged vote rigging by Labour in Leeds is an ongoing issue and you have to ask whether New Labour are actually a better coalition partner.

The buzz phrase seems to be "confidence and supply" which keeps us in a principled position, while using our influence to get decent council policies implemented.

To get to the heart of it, the Green Party is oppo...

2007-05-14T09:21:00.000Z

To get to the heart of it, the Green Party is opposed to economic growth, and believes that we have to use different economic indicators to measure success than GDP.

Economic growth is the main justification of capitalism as a system for increasing the wealth of everybody. Even though the poor's share of the pie may not get bigger, the pie itself becomes larger, due to growth, so everybody becomes wealthier.

Greens say - that may or may not be the case. The problem though, is that if we use up or degrade the earth's resources, then eventually there will not be much wealth left for anybody to enjoy. We cannot look just at the wealth of our own generation, but must take into account that of future generations.

We have to ask ourselves whether it is possible or desireable to have a capitalist system without growth. If not, then the Greens are anti-capitalist. If it is, then there is nothing to preclude Greens from being pro-capitalist or capitalist-ambivalent.

So I would put in plea that people explore this central issue if they want to discover whether we are anti-capitalist or not.

Anything else is window dressing.

this guy: well I wish I was on another planet some...

2007-05-13T18:08:00.000Z

this guy: well I wish I was on another planet sometimes... but I'm not going to think something because the majority do or do not think it and seeing as climate change is upon us I don't think catering policies to fit focus groups or the media is what is called for. We might not get the action needed, but the consequences of falling short are not pleasant to contemplate, so it is encumbant on us to fight for what we believe in.

richard: I agree that most people agree with some anti-capitalist ideas. Anyone who has gone out and argued for them will know that as you say, but of course this does not mean that the majority are consistent or coherent anti-capitalists, far from it - but the more we raise the ideas and push them in practical ways the more people we can win over to anti-c in practice - which is where it's important to my mind.

g-gae: the green vote = wasted vote is a common asumption and something we really need to fight. I think its clear from the last election where we get a presence on the council we can really build up momentum and people start viewing us as a real alternative, which of course we are in norwich, brighton and the rest.

Hello.I think there is much electoral milage to be...

2007-05-13T16:52:00.000Z

Hello.

I think there is much electoral milage to be made out of point out presenting GP policy as radical and progressive. In my experience, voters are often pleasantly surprised.

Interesting question about tactics. Personally I think it's essentially to get involved in government where possible. Yes, there will be compromises, but it's only by getting things done that we will refute the all too common assumption that a green vote is a wasted vote. But that doesn't mean that policy has to go out the window! To me, it goes without saying that councillors should act according to national party policy.

Apart from Mato Ska and alan Howe, you're all on a...

2007-05-13T16:20:00.000Z

Apart from Mato Ska and alan Howe, you're all on another planet. Red rather than green. Most people are not on the hard left. We're brainwashed by the Meeja? OK, so we won't be voting for you anyway.

You celebrate getting 26 local seats. At this rate, how long will it take you to overtake even the Libdems? About 400 years. But you're happy in your own little world.

By the way, you've misspelt Croydon Greens.

I think most people hold anti-capitalist values an...

2007-05-13T14:23:00.000Z

I think most people hold anti-capitalist values and don't realise it. If you want to preserve the environment and achieve sustainability within our western model of free market capitalism, then you are going to have a hard time trying to apologise for such a veraciously consumptive economic system. Capitalism demands we consumes our natural resources and an exponential rate so the economy can stay afloat, if growth is not sustained then investment does not continue, the business collapses. Trees grow at 3% pa. which is not as fast as money in the stock market where you could get over 10%, so to an economic rationalist it makes perfect sense to cut them all down and invest the money from the sale of the timber. Never mind having air to breathe or your future, that’s just an externality. The world is getting worse not better, why don’t people realise that they are drowning in the externalities of a system gone mad

philip: thanks for the comments, i too wouldn't wa...

2007-05-12T21:44:00.000Z

philip: thanks for the comments, i too wouldn't want to see the GP stridently announcing at every turn its anti-capitalist credentials (which would be far more about posture than reality) but I think its a worth while discussion as to what GP's relatinoship is to anti-capitalism, a movement that many of its members have been intimately involved with

mato: I don't think it is necessary for the green party to define itself as anti-capitalist - what I'm asking here is "is it?" But I would say that holding the Eastern Bloc up as the only altenrative to capitalism isn't going to cut much ice with me... power to the people it was not.

although i'm not sure of some of the points you're trying to make I'm happy to agree with you that the left (in the uk at least) has been far weaker at posing positive initiatives than it has been at denouncing and opposing those it regards as enemies.

alan: fair enough about the categories - I was only trying to make a generalised point about the fact that people with different relationships with the party often hold different kinds of views in the party too.

I think there are lots of people like you (there certainly are in cambridge) who are members but do little party activity - but are very active in camapigning activity.

Mr Jay,I don’t seem to fall into any of your categ...

2007-05-12T16:39:00.000Z

Mr Jay,

I don’t seem to fall into any of your categories, never mind. I am a member that doesn’t get involved with the party much, but that doesn’t mean I am passive. I am also a member of Greenpeace and am very active in the local Agenda 21 group. One element of the emerging consensus appears to be that politics is not the only method available to achieve our “aims”.

I can’t describe myself as an “anti-capitalist” simply because I’m not sure what “capitalism” really is. I can however, relate to phrases like “a system that commodifies nature and people” – from Matt Sellwood on his blog.

However, I am wondering whether it is the “system” that has produced this effect, or whether it is the greed, selfishness, arrogance and stupidity of human beings. Some would have it that any system is at the mercy of such human tendencies. At the risk of sounding like the “nearly departed”, do we have to look more closely at the “causes”?

Incidentally, I know a few Tories who are “spitting their Sherry across the veranda” at how “capitalism” has lost its way and is out of control.

Why is it necessary that the Green Party BE anti-c...

2007-05-12T12:34:00.000Z

Why is it necessary that the Green Party BE anti-capitalist? The Greens work as an electoral party and as a component of an common international experience. It has never been presented as a means of repreating the socialist or communist failed experiement. It was started after the collapse of European socialist and it has grown as a counter-current of the totalitarian outlooks and presents a new definition of ecological democracy. It presents a new project in the politicization of human rights. If you want to talk Green economics looks to a redefinition of how growth and basic needs can be met in the context of sustainability and bio-regionalism. If you want to address anti-capitalism as a political force then look at Greens as a project that upholds national integrity but does not seek to excuses the smaller despots any more then it excuses the bigger despots. If you look at anti-capitalism as a component of anti-globalist social movement look at Greens as a representative of the calm and not the maelstrom. We uphold the transformation not the revolution. And in the process of acquiring political power, we seek to redefine the future sufficiently to establish a new pattern not repetitive of the worst of the past.

The left has demonstrated repeatedly it stands as a reaction and not as a creator. It has demonstrated the irresponsibility of promoting death over life in the process of its own political empowerment. It speaks a foreign policy blind of anybut what it chooses to see in its own world. It presents NO contemporary analyses and vision. There are new seeds planted and they have their own blossom for the old flowers have wilted.

An enjoyable read with many truths - capitalism is...

2007-05-12T11:46:00.000Z

An enjoyable read with many truths - capitalism is indeed a powerful economic system but many tend to forget it is also a system of ideas - read Mollys' blog entry:
http://gaianeconomics.blogspot.com/2006/12/capitalist-mantras.html

There are anti-capitalists and anti-capitalists - and as you note there are Greens who believe in some changes and others who want to see complete overthrow. Generally elected Greens have been a force for social progress far to the left of Labour on all issues.

Greens are also well to the left of the Socialist Alliance and Respect on questions like women's and gay rights, health care, animal welfare, the environment and world development.

But words like 'anti-capitalist' are a turn off to most people - our message is positive so lets 'sell' it - too often we get pigeon holed for being anti everything - yet in reality we are almost the only ones with any vision and policies to go with them.

FoE in Scotland did an analysis on the parties - and only Greens had the policies to tackle climate change....want to write more but have an appointment....

Dave: That's a good point that far left can "worke...

2007-05-12T09:59:00.000Z

Dave: That's a good point that far left can "workerist" when it comes to the greens and generally when discussing the greens the less open minded tend to immediately fall back into knee jerk dogmatism. Although that certainly is not everyone.

Don: i tend to agree on Leeds, it's the price to pay if we're to have a decentralised party... but there is a discussion that needs to be had about the necessary tension between national policy and local councillors (and eventually MPs etc.) I don't want to be more centralised than the pager led New Labour project but I also think people should obey national policy eg opposition to ALMOs and council housing sell offs

Thoughtful article,I would agree that the Green Pa...

2007-05-12T06:47:00.000Z

Thoughtful article,

I would agree that the Green Party is not a traditional left party and I think that this is a major strength in that we are not hidebound by tradition.

I also think that the analysis of the pressures on elected representatives is accurate. My experience of officials and senior lay representatives in the TGWU indicates that there is a drift towards the right for those that hold positions of authority and power.

The debate around the Leeds situation also highlights an important difference between our selves and other parties. Yes it is frustrating for many of us but at least we don't have either a party hack coming along to tell us the corrent line, or finding your local party branch suspended because you have upset the leader.

In the end we as broad a party as the Labour Party. As we get bigger our internal tensions will increase. Only time will tell if we drift to the centre or, a first maybe, achieve power with our core principles intact.

Don Fraser

Interesting discussion here:http://greenlefts.blog...

2007-05-12T05:10:00.000Z

Interesting discussion here:
http://greenlefts.blogspot.com/2007/05/peter-camejokeep-california-gren-party.html
and here:
http://polizeros.com/index.php?s=camejo
about the problems in Californian Greens re a major attempt to fuse them with the Dems.

So essentially the whole green party thing is played out in a political context that is very tactically relevant.

Nonetheless, I find the UK far left's seeming disregard of the Greens to be shallow and blinkered -- & maybe grossly workerist in its preference.

It IS an anti-capitalist party and it IS NOT a bourgeois party like the UK Labour Party. Them's the facts.