tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post8195949047765187005..comments2023-08-16T12:07:22.995+00:00Comments on The Daily (Maybe): Those right-wing GreensJim Jeppshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-68032701651143422712010-06-17T16:57:59.671+00:002010-06-17T16:57:59.671+00:00@ Darren Johnson Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:22:00 P...@ Darren Johnson Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:22:00 PM<br /><br /><i>"..the actual policy platforms were firmly planted on the non-marxist left.</i><br /><br />That's "right" to me. It all depends on where you perceive the "centre" to be......weggishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04651722712995395981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-78977130828279561672010-06-17T13:42:02.339+00:002010-06-17T13:42:02.339+00:00Hi Darren,
I tried to choose my words carefully t...Hi Darren,<br /><br />I tried to choose my words carefully there, although didn't expand. I deliberately chose to say "seen as" rather than "was" right-wing because, as you say, there were clear commitments against nukes, arms trade etc. but the public perception (I think) was that while labour was committed to trade union and collective struggles, the Greens were individualist and possibly for abstaining from conflicts like the miners strike.<br /><br />But I should make clear that this is about perceptions, albiet ones with some basis.<br /><br />However the other part, about the basis of the party, I think it is fair to say that the founders of the party had a more right-wing vision than the founders of the danish or dutch party who stand on pretty solid/traditional left ground.<br /><br />I'd like to look at the 83 manifesto though - just out of curiosity.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-52735414974484775902010-06-17T13:22:13.525+00:002010-06-17T13:22:13.525+00:00Jim just seen your comment as follows "agree ...Jim just seen your comment as follows "agree the roots of the Greens in UK not to the left and certainly in the eighties they were widely seen as a right-wing party."<br /><br />I've just gone back to take a look at the party's 1983 GE manifesto (which was what led me to joining the party in the first place!) and while it's fair to characterise it as a bit woolly and eccentric in places it's totally incorrect to suggest it is right wing. There are clear commitments to nuclear disarmament, ending the arms trade, redistribution of wealth, tackling crime through eliminating poverty and inequality, bringing in strict controls on multi-national corporations and retaining public services in public ownership (ie this was before the Thatcherite privatisation era really got going!).<br /><br />The 1987 GE manifesto took a similar stance. Although in the 1970s and 1980s positioning was dessed up in "neither left nor right" rhetoric, the actual policy platforms were firmly planted on the non-marxist left. <br /><br />Darren Johnson AMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-36633654268081630432010-06-09T00:06:39.801+00:002010-06-09T00:06:39.801+00:00Thanks for this Jim, interesting. I also liked the...Thanks for this Jim, interesting. I also liked the 'is the Green Party anti-capitalist?' post.Simon13https://www.blogger.com/profile/01857443364456335410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-23759032321446900582010-06-08T17:11:31.798+00:002010-06-08T17:11:31.798+00:00Speaking personally at this particular election it...Speaking personally at this particular election it would have been difficult for the Greens to go into a coalition with Labour (not that it was going to happen anyway) because we'd be far too small to be influential and Labour's economic plans were essentially very different from ours - although less different than Libs or Cons.<br /><br />Whether or not the party recognises the contradiction but the economic policy we went into the election with was a rejection of zero growth economics, although I could see that someone could draw out a difference between short term and long term planning.<br /><br />I do think we should avoid conflating the economy as a whole and government spending though. Although connected clearly spending could go up while GDP goes down and vice verse.<br /><br />Part of the deficit problem is the declining amount of tax revenue we're receiving and I think undermining the 'real' economy risks making that side of the equation worse as does rising unemployment more generally.<br /><br />The last Tory government was determined to reduce the benefits burden, much to the misery for many people, but it still rose year on year and I think we may see some parallel effects this time around.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-44265833646918831012010-06-08T15:52:44.002+00:002010-06-08T15:52:44.002+00:00Rupert I'm happy to talk about the coalition, ...Rupert I'm happy to talk about the coalition, but this is the first time it has come up.<br /><br />Anyway, I can see the consistency of Jim's position of sticking with the left and supporting public spending. <br /><br />But how do you do that, without growth? You could default on the national debt, perhaps, but that would still leave £110bn per year cuts to be found, which is about the amount (off the top of my head) borrowing exceeds interest.<br /><br />The logic of a stable zero growth economy surely demands that the government pays its way and doesn't borrow excessively or throughout the economic cycle. You should be condemning Labour even more than I do.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-22823942462561207112010-06-08T08:52:01.814+00:002010-06-08T08:52:01.814+00:00Nice try Joe at distracting us from the central fa...Nice try Joe at distracting us from the central fact of British politics at this time - that the LibDems, your party, have jumped into bed with the Tories in order to bring in savage cuts that will be bad for our society and probably bad for our economy too.<br />On zero-growth: this is absolutely central. Jim, have you read Herman Daly's work? If not, then please do. Green ecological economics requires zero-growth.<br />Apart from that, this is a great piece, Jim! Well written.Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04334135270533978426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-9249159581268098892010-06-07T17:36:45.812+00:002010-06-07T17:36:45.812+00:00Wow. Philosophical ephemera. The fireworks are goi...Wow. Philosophical ephemera. The fireworks are going off now. Excellent.<br /><br />But without it, what clearly distinguishes you from, say, the Socialist Labour Party (if that is still going)?<br /><br />Reassessing how we measure success is a good idea, but it is something of a straw man to say that we judge everything in terms of growth already. We spend highly on pensions and care for the elderly already, which is a dead loss in terms of growth. (Rather than education and science). Baby boomers have fetishised house prices at the expense of life chances for the next generation and therefore economic growth.<br /><br />And it seems to me that you are in danger of "fetishising" public spending to the extent that you necessarily implicitly fetishise the growth necessary to sustain it.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-79257014823139765142010-06-07T17:18:44.420+00:002010-06-07T17:18:44.420+00:00It's all true Matt. I don't believe in zer...It's all true Matt. I don't believe in zero growth economics.<br /><br />I certainly do believe in a low carbon economy and that we should reassess how we measure economic success. <br /><br />Growth for its own sake is meaningless, but to fetishise an anti-growth economic metric seems to me to be a rather blunt instrument.<br /><br />As ever I am open to persuasion of course.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-54018577074344131442010-06-07T17:14:59.470+00:002010-06-07T17:14:59.470+00:00"This zero growth stuff is some sort of philo..."This zero growth stuff is some sort of philosophical ephemera rather than current policy. I also think it's more nuanced than you say - but still don't personally agree with it."<br /><br />Blimey. Really?Matt Sellwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03065263755893515703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-57369415865177005502010-06-07T12:59:18.653+00:002010-06-07T12:59:18.653+00:00Bart: thanks for the extra info. Very useful.
Joe...Bart: thanks for the extra info. Very useful.<br /><br />Joe: agree the roots of the Greens in UK not to the left and certainly in the eighties they were widely seen as a right-wing party. Those days are behind though thankfully.<br /><br />I think the four founding movements in the charter (quoted at the start of the article) are good ones, I think being true to them would be a good thing, rather than seeing ourselves as separate with separate interests.<br /><br />Joe2: I'm not sure I'd only ever consider deals with labour, I'm saying that you need to be strong enough to get what you want and that your coalition partners have to have some common ground. This could include Plaid, SNP, the left or others - or it might not depending on the circumstances.<br /><br />Our voters voted for a very different economic policy and are overwhelmingly pro-immigration - I don't think they'd appreciate chucking all our policies for a concession that we wont get.<br /><br />Joe3: Our manifesto was very clear that we are opposed to the cuts and that we want to spend, spend, spend our way out the economic crisis.<br /><br />This zero growth stuff is some sort of philosophical ephemera rather than current policy. I also think it's more nuanced than you say - but still don't personally agree with it.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-2403855231684004262010-06-07T12:51:04.655+00:002010-06-07T12:51:04.655+00:00Dave: I agree capitalism is key to how these thing...Dave: I agree capitalism is key to how these things turned out - I was just trying to draw out different strands. It may not look like it but I was trying to keep the post short!<br /><br />I organised a great fringe a couple of years ago at GP conf on 'is the green party anti-capitalist' and I think it's something well worth revisiting (write up from an independent <a href="http://greendespatches.blogspot.com/2008/02/so-is-green-party-anti-capitalist.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>)<br /><br />However, I actually think it's electoralism that is the Green myopia rather than creating party line on capitalism though.<br /><br />That said our MP is an an anti-capitalist as are many of the members, but as the write up indicates there are large numbers of essentially social democrats among our numbers (and a few deep greens et al in boot)Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-75631608913097065882010-06-07T06:23:28.935+00:002010-06-07T06:23:28.935+00:00Why wouldn't they blame Labour like everybody ...Why wouldn't they blame Labour like everybody else - for spending £160bn a year above what they raised in taxes.<br /><br />Labour may be speaking as if they had a magic pot of money to use if they won the election, but their actual plans were £80bn of cuts just like everybody else.<br /><br />The Greens of course would have to cut even more, because economic growth is an essential part of reducing the deficit.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-44817901017275135562010-06-07T05:35:21.970+00:002010-06-07T05:35:21.970+00:00I wonder if a similar fate to that of the Irish Gr...I wonder if a similar fate to that of the Irish Greens awaits the Lib Dems?<br /><br />How comfortable will Greenish and Leftish Lib Dems feel when the massive public sector cuts hit?Red Green Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09276164119703619629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-6734643452474710562010-06-07T01:22:24.375+00:002010-06-07T01:22:24.375+00:00I mean the history of the Green Party written by D...I mean the history of the Green Party written by Derek Wall. I link to it here: <br /><br />http://joeotten.blogspot.com/2006/11/greenpartywatch-derek-wall-elected.htmlJoe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-20080317695193194972010-06-06T23:22:38.680+00:002010-06-06T23:22:38.680+00:00Joe Otten,
What has the history of one individual,...Joe Otten,<br />What has the history of one individual, viz Derek Wall, to do with the roots of the Green Party?weggishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04651722712995395981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-32635835847691404372010-06-06T20:12:32.102+00:002010-06-06T20:12:32.102+00:00Oh, interesting, but the roots of the UK (or EW) G...Oh, interesting, but the roots of the UK (or EW) Green Party are not at all left wing. Judging by Derek Wall's history, they are clearly right-wing.<br /><br />And before around the early 90's the UKGP didn't identify with the left. Neither left, right nor centre, but in front was a slogan you would still sometimes hear.<br /><br />So when you want a party to be true to its founding movements, be careful what you wish for.<br /><br />--<br /><br />The other point is that if you would only ever contemplate deals with Labour, and no other party, then you might as well all join Labour. There really is little point being a separate party.<br /><br />And as it is now, there is nothing out there for the voter who wants to save the planet, but it happy for the peace, civil rights and labour movements to look after themselves for the time being. That surely is the niche that a green party - as opposed to a socialist party - ought to be filling.<br /><br />Forget your cobbled together ideology of errors, and sell your MP's vote for the biggest carbon reduction it can buy! Anything less is a betrayal of your voters.Joe Ottenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18380362092159905533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-43526923077937277762010-06-06T19:01:40.991+00:002010-06-06T19:01:40.991+00:00There's an interesting discussion here as to w...There's an interesting discussion here as to whether the Aust Greens are a party of the left<br /><br />http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/03/the-greens-as-a-social-democratic-and-left-party/<br /><br />A new member once said at his first meeting of my old local party 'I'm not really sure if I'm too left wing for the Greens' to which someone answered 'You can't really be too left wing here!'.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265879138924032478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-54376788650067965092010-06-05T20:19:16.659+00:002010-06-05T20:19:16.659+00:00Well Jim, quite an interesting post, but some more...Well Jim, quite an interesting post, but some more information needs to be added to this picture, especially regarding the Czech Greens.<br /><br />I am really sad to see their defeat - a result of a bad coalition, resulting in a flat tax, US radar plans etc. but regarding corruption they retained their image as the only party immune to that problem. The biggest problem for green politics in Central and Eastern Europe is that after years of Communism people and the media are far more to the right than in the West. In 2006, the electiorate of the Greens was far different than that in Germany - it was right-wing, pro-market, in fact the party policies were more to the left than the opinions of their electorate! The knowledge of living under Real Communism (or state capitalism, as some would say) makes thinking about abandoning capitalism quite, let's say, extraordinary and any policies other than "mending the system" are recalled as political suicide. The Greens in Poland are considered ofted radical, althoug we just question the failures of the market, ie. in public services.<br /><br />I would also not say that every single coalition with the right is evil. In Finland the Greens are now in a centr-right coalition and it doesn't mean that the welfare state is crumbling there. Of course, nothing's perfect (nuclear station is being built there, but everey other party is for this investment to procede, so it's hard if not impossible to stop it), but I think it's more a question of the consistency of the party, it's alligment to the core, green values than simply a question of not going to bed with the right. As You could see, also the coalitions with the left can have sad moments (ie. SPD and Jugoslavia). But it's not to say that coalition possibilities as such should be ruled out. In Saarland, Greens made CDU and FDP to abandon tuition fees at universities and halt building any new coal mines - I think that's quite an achievement in pushing green policies.<br /><br />Of course this doesn't mean that I urge You to aid the Conservatives, luckily in the UK You have better option (including building a strong party) than in Poland ;)<br /><br />Wishing You all the best<br />BartBeniexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18238413633502219031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-63836802934375950222010-06-05T14:14:03.640+00:002010-06-05T14:14:03.640+00:00We could add that this applies equally to any soci...We could add that this applies equally to any socialist outfit:"There is no such thing as an abstract political philosophy immune from the trials and tribulations of the world."<br /><br />However, you sidestep one key element in your mix, Jim: the question of capitalism. That perhaps hAS some relevance don't you think?<br /><br />Unless you consciously recognize that capitalism is a barrier to environmental sustainability and whatever, your advocacy and your strategy are always going to be contained within the confines of capitalism. <br /><br />Thats' the green parties political myopia which sets them up to find accommodations within coalition manoevres and draws them away from movement campaigning into a electoral political preferences. In fact thats' the green parties' burden and their fatal flaw. <br /><br />Because while parliament rules your activity, the green party right is always going to have a case for conservative politics.Dave Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05319742357589026156noreply@blogger.com