tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post3280666603746203809..comments2023-08-16T12:07:22.995+00:00Comments on The Daily (Maybe): Misc timeJim Jeppshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comBlogger103125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-15086232502734924202011-03-07T19:21:01.976+00:002011-03-07T19:21:01.976+00:00And on that bombshell I'm going to close the c...And on that bombshell I'm going to close the comments on this thread. <br /><br />I think I've given you all enough space to express your opinions on this matter but over 100 comments in I'm inclined to ask you to find some other space to pollute.<br /><br />Bye everyone.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-69512352861663803752011-03-07T19:04:19.573+00:002011-03-07T19:04:19.573+00:00Any chance that somebody might give examples of an...Any chance that somebody might give examples of anti-Semitism in the Green Party?Lobby Luddnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-49977727766018154822011-03-07T15:27:09.989+00:002011-03-07T15:27:09.989+00:00Sorry, not Raphael, A Green Party member - the res...Sorry, not Raphael, A Green Party member - the rest stands.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-287373382214083902011-03-07T13:43:58.234+00:002011-03-07T13:43:58.234+00:00Raphael - We have already discussed at length the ...Raphael - We have already discussed at length the fact that the working definition says that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel <i>if you criticise other "democratic nations" for the same things</i>. That second half that you have excised from the sentence makes all the difference because it begs questions around Israel's current and on-going colonial settlement, ethnic cleansing and racist laws, the fact that Israel is more heavily subsidised by the west than any other state and the fact that Israel's existence is predicated on its alliance with imperialism and its on-going human rights abuses. It also has more privileged access to European markets than any other serial human rights abuser. It also has apologists throughout the western establishment.<br /><br />It also begs the question why should Israel's victims and their supporters criticise anyone else for the same things? Which other state is it racist to criticise without criticising others for the same things?<br /><br />You have also ignored the fact that the WD lists things that simply must not be said, though Bob seems to think that the "context" issue "might" make it ok to compare Israel to the nazis, say that Israel is an apartheid state, say that Jews are not a case for self-determination, and say that the establishment of Israel is a racist endeavour and so on.<br /><br />I think if we want to consider forms of racism then we have to consider the centrality of discrimination. So we have to ask ourselves, does a thing complained of discriminate against Jews as Jews? The WD clearly seeks to protect zionism and the illegitimate state whose official ideology it is, the State of Israel as it is currently constituted. <br /><br />But it's all been had out on this and Bob's blog.<br /><br />Frankly Raphael, I don't know if the emailed ding-dong you complained of amounted to antisemitic abuse or not but, by reference to the working definition, you "could" say that I "might be" antisemitic in this thread, subject to the "context" of course.<br /><br />This working definition is disgusting. It hamstrings Palestine solidarity and it essentialises Jews as belonging to Israel and vice versa. The danger for the Palestinians cannot be gainsaid but the essentialising of Jews will create problems for us all in the long or even not so long term. I don't know why people are so cavalier about community relations between Jews and other minorities but this WD can only come between us.<br /><br />Now, enough already!levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-60746141250260563812011-03-07T11:04:50.084+00:002011-03-07T11:04:50.084+00:00I have been following this thread with growing inc...I have been following this thread with growing incredulity. Ms Fink, a new member who joined on a wim, is considering a complaint against Alan Howe, and now wants Jim Jepps to stand down! Who on earth does she think she is?<br /><br />As for the "working definition", Levi is getting this all out of proportion. It doesn't matter whether he/she or Gordon is right about nationalism, the issue for us is what sort of guidelines the GPRC should have used in dealing with very serious allegations within the party. Is there a better definition, that would actually be useful to the party in weighing up the allegations? Looking at the working definition, it specifically says that criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, so I don't undersand the repeated "it stifles criticism" claim.A Green Party membernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-15798883186264368522011-03-07T10:13:51.591+00:002011-03-07T10:13:51.591+00:00Jim: "Top that - I think I win the 'delib...Jim: "Top that - I think I win the 'deliberately wind other people up' competition with that one. "<br /><br />It does not seem that any "winding up" is necessary at all. My worry is that you have won the possibility of demonstrating that any proposition is both true and false.Raphaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10605252659871359565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-41017757182129332072011-03-06T22:34:57.223+00:002011-03-06T22:34:57.223+00:00Reading and comprehension are not exactly Debbie&#...Reading and comprehension are not exactly Debbie's strong point.weggishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04651722712995395981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-47457320018763626292011-03-06T21:53:49.633+00:002011-03-06T21:53:49.633+00:00did i misread the comment, Jim?did i misread the comment, Jim?levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-1675414302068413962011-03-06T21:53:27.292+00:002011-03-06T21:53:27.292+00:00did i misread the comment, Jim?did i misread the comment, Jim?levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-83103816263555562522011-03-06T21:53:23.908+00:002011-03-06T21:53:23.908+00:00Well, Jim, you seem to be implying that i don'...Well, Jim, you seem to be implying that i don't do anything in my community. Certainly, you are undermining what i do do, saying that my interest in the party amounts to nothing - and impugning my integrity by implying that I am an entryist. I mentioned the hustings to show that i have an interest in the party outside Israel/Palestine, unlike supporters of Greens Engage who don't go to hustings or meetings.<br /><br />And still no apology. A real man and a real Green would apologise, not just attack people from the comfort of his armchair.Deborah Finkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05479916311984549156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-3899717237070027162011-03-06T21:33:07.157+00:002011-03-06T21:33:07.157+00:00I don't know what you do in your community, no...I don't know what you do in your community, nor do I claim to - you've misread my comment.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-47211384003273352992011-03-06T21:23:00.499+00:002011-03-06T21:23:00.499+00:00Thanks Levi.
How does he know what i do in my loc...Thanks Levi.<br /><br />How does he know what i do in my local community? And why is that more important? Yes, why does he only attack me for what focus I choose to take? (And why does he not attack those who are damaging the party?) I suspect it's personal.<br /><br />What worries me most about this, is that Jim is a member of the executive. Time for him to step down, I think.Deborah Finkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05479916311984549156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-56774638756890774302011-03-06T15:18:23.134+00:002011-03-06T15:18:23.134+00:00Green Gordon - I'm sure you'll take a quic...Green Gordon - I'm sure you'll take a quick peek back at this thread if only to hone your tactics for future discussions. Storming off from a discussion because you can't make your case is more like primary school behaviour than anything you have specifically complained of.<br /><br />Jim Jepps - if you have an issue with Deborah Fink's focus on the question of Palestine then you could express it in a completely non-insulting way, especially as you claim that "you need to be able to work with people with all kinds of different views".<br /><br />There are people who have posted comments on this and on Bob's blog who are members of the Greens who have clearly distorted the situation in Israel and smeared and insulted those who have described it and campaigned against it and they have done these things, it seems, in order to have the Greens adopt what purports to be a "working definition of antisemitism" that looks suspiciously like an attempt to silence legitimate criticism of the State of Israel or its zionist ideology, structure and policies and to make the critics of Israel out to be racists rather than anti-racists. <br /><br />You do not seem to have any problem with people lying for racist war criminals and smearing their opponents, only with Deborah.<br /><br />I am not saying that to criticise Deborah is wrong and I am not averse to insulting people who I suspect of filibustering or resorting to intellectual dishonesty (as you have presumably seen) but Deborah is guilty of neither of these things.<br /><br />But you then, through humour, make yourself out to be above the fray when you have shown partisanship in an extremely offensive way. I think you should apologise to Deborah.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-14316301065435671242011-03-06T11:00:23.660+00:002011-03-06T11:00:23.660+00:00Gordon, you can go home - I have to live here :)
...Gordon, you can go home - I have to live here :)<br /><br />Two points. a. I'm glad DF is spending a lot of time on internal party business like hustings and conferences but it's hardly an example of 'things entryists don't do' and does not increase our vote by even one.<br /><br />Building the Green Party in our local areas is the key thing our activists do, deepening our roots in communities and sharing their concerns over their libraries, community centres and neighbourhoods. <br /><br />For that you need to be able to work with people with all kinds of different views and at least give the appearance of being a normal human being rather than a self-indulgent shrieking obsessive. <br /><br />As an electoral nerd I find the 'appearing to be normal' business quite a difficult trick to pull off, I'm sure others have similar difficulties with this.<br /><br />b. I've given some thought to what the most annoying thing I could say at this juncture would be and I think I've come up with it.<br /><br />"You're *all* right, and I agree with you *all*. It's interesting to me that people who share so much politically can get so angry with each other when they are so clearly meant to be together."<br /><br />Top that - I think I win the 'deliberately wind other people up' competition with that one.Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-34637411199679784822011-03-06T10:49:10.363+00:002011-03-06T10:49:10.363+00:00No Green Gordon, I do not get your point but then ...No Green Gordon, I do not get your point but then you seem to be missing most of mine. <br /><br />There is a "working definition" of antisemitism that clearly seeks to prevent criticism of Israel and that pays particular attention to campaigning or speaking against the existence of the State of Israel as a state specifically for the world's Jews established at the expense of its native non-Jews. It is my contention that people who support that definition as a guide to what is or what is not permissible re the State of Israel, are being misled or dishonest with the result that people will be forbidden from criticising Israel in any way at all irrespective of the WD's nods to "context", "double standards" and "criticis[ing] other countries ("democratic nations") for the same things".<br /><br />You have said that to have a specific policy on antisemitism is consistent with the Greens' policies on racism against other communities. I have asked you which communities? As far as I know the policy is against all forms of racism with "including antisemitism" included in the wording. I don't know of other forms of racism specified. <br /><br />I have also said we are going round in circles which we clearly are.<br /><br />Even if a specific policy on antisemitism is required, and I don't think it is, this "working definition" should not inform that policy because it stinks.<br /><br />Gordon, I truly have a poor concentration span and I have a tendency to skim but I don't think you have given any examples to support contentions you have made against the Greens' anti-racist policies or of nations/peoples granted self-determination in the way that the world's Jews are accorded self-determination via the State of Israel and thanks to a rolling programme of colonial settlement and ethnic cleansing facilitated by segregationist laws. It is this that leads me to suspect that you do indeed support the State of Israel which could not exist as a Jewish state without the current, on-going and systematic triad of impairments I have described. Even if you don't support Israel, if the WD is adopted, it will create the repugnant situation where the supporters of ethnic cleansing can continue their activities whilst their opponents could not. If you follow the links to Engage/Greens Engage that I provided earlier, you will see that if the WD was Greens Party policy Caroline Lucas would be censured as an antisemite and could even face expulsion from the party.<br /><br />I must say Gordon, that I think you are an outrageous hypocrite. I have simply followed the logic of your own position to say that you appear to at best downplay Israel's ethnic cleansing and possibly to support it. I have been subjected to vicious smears by being quoted out of context (literally to the extent of Moddy and Bob cutting words from my comments) and your bogus complaint against a comment of mine on Bob's blog had him quite unjustly threatening to delete further comments of mine.<br /><br />You want to make out that self-determination for Jews is the same as other peoples/nations, then name one or some. You want to say that other specified communities are protected from racism as Jews would be protected from a specific policy on antisemitism, name another or other communities. I am simply asking you support your assertions by reference to examples.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-67602277852842850502011-03-06T10:41:36.667+00:002011-03-06T10:41:36.667+00:00Had to unsubscribe. It's like primary school o...Had to unsubscribe. It's like primary school on the comments.Green Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00213685949038895130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-9989495096811507182011-03-06T03:06:15.838+00:002011-03-06T03:06:15.838+00:00P.S. Alan, I spent the whole afternoon and Thursda...P.S. Alan, I spent the whole afternoon and Thursday evening, at Green Party hustings. Where were you? Where was the person who I put in a complaint against?<br /><br />If I was an entryist, I would not be showing that sort of interest in the party (I mean, Israel/Palestine were not issues here) and in helping myself make an informed decision as to whom to vote for.Deborah Finkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05479916311984549156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-89538591447635218792011-03-06T01:53:40.733+00:002011-03-06T01:53:40.733+00:00Actually Alan, I have not put a complaint in again...Actually Alan, I have not put a complaint in against you, so don't like, but I am now considering it. Someone else was going to put in a complaint against you but I don't know if s/he has done so yet or how far it has progressed.<br /><br />How could I be an entryist if I joined the party on a whim! That is the opposite of joining with an agenda! And how dare you accuse me of that! Perhaps you ought to ask our fellow local party members about the circumstances under which I joined. They were there. I joined because I agree with the party's stance on the environment, human and animal rights and civil liberties. When I then discovered that there was a problem with people making constant, public allegations of anti-semitism, probably to overturn party policy on Palestine, I saw how I could help the party. I knew all about Engage before I joined the party and was horrified to discover that there was Greens Engage.<br /><br />And again you go on about me being a single issue person. So what? As I've said before, do you think it's better that I wear myself out or spread myself thinly? Again, as I've said, I concentrate on an area where I can make the most difference, because of my Jewish origins. But then, Alan, you've never understood that. In fact, you are against it- you attack Jews who campaign against what Israel's doing, (remember what you said about the Jewish boat to Gaza?). You just don't get it, do you.<br /><br />There are plenty of single issue people in the party. You just don't happen to like the single issue that I've chosen. But in any case, when I did venture into animal rights activism, you attacked me for that too! For some reason, you like to attack me. Maybe it is because you can't argue with me, and you don't like that. When people make personal attacks, it is usually because they can't argue the point.Deborah Finkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05479916311984549156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-18017367530391383732011-03-05T21:38:04.965+00:002011-03-05T21:38:04.965+00:00Deborah Fink @ Friday, March 04, 2011 2:25:00 AM
...Deborah Fink @ Friday, March 04, 2011 2:25:00 AM<br /><br /><i>"Sad to see Green Party members attacking the party and it's members, (including myself), publicly. Where is your loyalty, Jim Jepps and Alan Howe (Weggis)?"</i><br /><br />I prefer to call it constructive criticism from people who have just a little bit more experience of the party’s ways than you.<br /><br /><i>"Contrary to what Weggis has said, you can over turn what was agreed at a previous GPRC meeting- it's not like conference."</i><br /><br />Only if they suspend standing orders first. Which is what they did and what I reported. You’re a member try reading the minutes, they’re on the members website.<br /><br /><i>"As for my complaint against a member, it was not just about the publishing of the earlier GPRC document but of other internal documents and constant attacks on the party."</i><br /><br />Your complaint against me was rejected, remember?<br /><br /><br />Deborah Fink @ Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:15:00 AM<br /><br /><i>"However, unlike the person I've complained about, I go to most meetings, conferences and hustings and I leaflet, canvass, man stalls and take an interest in the party."</i><br /><br />Precisely the behaviour one would expect of an “entryist” with a single issue agenda. <i>“My main issue is Palestine”.</i> Some are easier to spot than others....<br /><br /><i>"I joined the party on a whim and discovered that there was a problem with Israel apologists,"</i><br /><br />I am not aware of any “Israel apologists” in the party. Please name and shame WITH evidence.weggishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04651722712995395981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-58833852369072364562011-03-05T14:36:56.930+00:002011-03-05T14:36:56.930+00:00I really do not know what that means. I'm info...I really do not know what that means. I'm informed by my academic study if nationalism for my masters not by cranky polarised blogs. The argument that self-determination is only for people that share a territory is not supported in the literature. States tend to be formed if Nations of people. Nations of people may be united by all sorts of things from culture, to territory to race. This is a general principle that has nothing specifically to do with the middle east but is the cause of all sorts of conflict (over territory). If the Green party becomes islamophobic, I'll argue against that despite my ditstaste for Sharia law... See my point? As long as I'm labelled an apologist for Israel or ethnic cleansing there is no point in any discussion as there is a clear presumption of bad will.Green Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00213685949038895130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-88948894138697210952011-03-05T13:51:42.550+00:002011-03-05T13:51:42.550+00:00yup - you're right.
But here it is again.
I ...yup - you're right.<br /><br /><a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html" rel="nofollow">But here it is again</a>.<br /><br />I don't know why Gordon didn't mention it....<br /><br />Thankslevi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-76978863879841581922011-03-05T11:49:57.754+00:002011-03-05T11:49:57.754+00:00Levi - your link to How To make The Case For Israe...Levi - your link to <a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html" rel="nofollow">How To make The Case For Israel And Win</a> appears to be broken.skidmarxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-81949063492731486402011-03-05T00:25:45.318+00:002011-03-05T00:25:45.318+00:00Moddy - we crossed. what you said wasn't actu...Moddy - we crossed. what you said wasn't actually a challenge. the link to the EUMC WD is on my own blog so it was just another honest mistake that i assumed it was no longer on line. bob had to quote me out of context to make out i had got one on the WD's conditions wrong and rather chillingly he had to admit that israel is being established and maintained as a state specially for the world's jews by doing to the native non-jews what america and australia <i>did</i> to their respective native populations back in the day. i have argued that this means that under the WD you would not be able to condemn israel's ethnic cleansing because to condemn it is to deny the right of jews to self-determination (which the WD says is antisemitic) and israel is unique in that on-going colonial settlement and ethnic cleansing together with its segregation are happening now whereas no other state exhibits this triad of impairments.<br /><br />nothing wrong with my understanding of the EUMC WD. funny, i noticed that whilst darren johnstone does indeed say that there has been antisemitism in the greens (though he didn't give examples) he didn't feel that the EUMC was the way to tackle it. taking him at his word, i'd agree with that last bit.<br /><br />but where was your challenge on the substantive content of the WD?levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-21979952125296659052011-03-05T00:15:50.772+00:002011-03-05T00:15:50.772+00:00To respond to Bob's point about my comment on ...To respond to Bob's point about my comment on the Just Peace list in 2009, that was precisely it. I was not a member back then so why should I have been loyal? A lot of people think tactically. In any case, what had happened, was that I'd just been to a hustings where I was not impressed with the Green MEP candidate, who I will not name here. BUT, in the end, I did vote Green, having been impressed with Jean Lambert at an earlier hustings.<br /><br />My main issue is Palestine, but having joined the Greens, I care about the party and don't want to see damage done to it. I joined the party on a whim and discovered that there was a problem with Israel apologists, after my first London meeting. However, unlike the person I've complained about, I go to most meetings, conferences and hustings and I leaflet, canvass, man stalls and take an interest in the party.Deborah Finkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05479916311984549156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30598467.post-88655369556980408202011-03-04T17:06:33.519+00:002011-03-04T17:06:33.519+00:00Gordon - sorry I missed your not understanding of ...Gordon - sorry I missed your not understanding of my "community to be protected" and anyway I should have said "which other form of <i>anti</i>-racism specifies the community to be protected". <br /><br />You say that a separate policy specifically against antisemitism is consistent with existing policy against racism against any community. But if that is the case, why specify antisemitism? Where or what is the policy on other forms of racism? I thought the policy was to oppose all forms of racism including antisemitism which I should have thought was fine. That's one thing. The other is that if a specific policy on antisemitism is required, why must it assert a Jewish right to self-determination (a la working definition) together with other protections of what Israel does and represents? How can that be effected without racism against non-Jews in the same country? You claim that ethnic cleansing is just part of the arbitrariness of citizenship law. Are you also saying that ethnic cleansing and segregation are not racist? And if you are saying that they are, why have a policy against racism when you propose a policy against antisemitism that protects anti-Arab racism from condemnation? Anyway, we are going round in circles now and it is all bad news for Jim here. But I think everything had been covered.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.com